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What the Police Said to Woody
Sorrell's report
describes Officer Parker as "requesting" that Woody drop the knife.
Several of the eyewitnesses remember differently.
Eyewitnesses
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source:12/2 handwritten statement
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The police shouted at him to drop the knife, when he
apparently didn't respond, but became more agitated, there were two
or three shots. I assumed this was not ammunition and was surprised
to see him fall.
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source:12/2 interview, p.5
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Did he give any indication that he was surrendering or
giving up?
No, I think he.. I think he felt very endangered and that's why I
think he.. he felt, uh ... no I don't think he did.
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I didn't (the tone of voice) appropriate for speaking
to someone who was psychotic and upset. I mean it was very loud
shouts. And I don't recall more than I think they said drop the knife.
(did they say that more than once?)
I think so. I never heard anything aggressive coming from him ... I
mean I think uh, escept I will kill myself.
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source:12/2 interview, p.6
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I think they said clear the room.
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Did they engage the gentleman in any other conversation or
anything?
No ... no it was ... it was immediately was a very loud uh command.
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source:12/2 interview, p.13
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OK some words exchanged and the police officers?
Not exchanged, I don't remember him saying anything.
OK but the police officers ordered him ...
Drop the knife or something.
What time period ...?
I don't think more than a minute.
I don't remember anything like asking him to get to the ground. OK, I
think maybe he said drop the knife.
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He must have really gotten berserk up there, I couldn't see that.
Because I tell you, they charged in there like that or like what ...
I don't the third person came in ... I have no idea.
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There wasn't a lot of dialog, definitely not.
There was some interchange because I remember the police officers
voice being very, very ... you know, booming. It was there. OK. But
you know, he didn't respond to anybody there before. If you try to
any kind of authority with him before, he'd just say "get away, get
away."
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He kept saying "no, no, no" the police were coming
forward. He had not wanted the police to come, he kept saying "you
have to be my witnesses, you have to be my collective witnesses.
When he got extremely agitated, I just kept hearing "no".
I was focused on getting people out of the room.
I wasn't looking at him. I just wanted to get my friends out
of the room. I wasn't really looking at him. He turned and started
to come forward. They were telling him to put his knife down.
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source:12/2 interview, p.6
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The only real thing I heard was for him to drop the knife.
Did he reply to that?
Well, he was shouting "No, no, no."
And he was extremely ... I'd say at this point he was extremely agitated.
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I believe the no, no, no was directed at them=84 He
was doing this kind of thing.
Holding up his hands?
Holding up his hands. At the time they came in, between the time they
came in and the time the shooting occurred, it couldn't have been
more than a couple of minutes. It was very quick. It was very quick.
When they asked him to drop the knife, did he comply?
No, he never dropped the knife. He never dropped the knife. It was at
his ... I never saw it drop. I never saw him drop it. I never saw him
place it down. There was never any attempt for him to put it down. He
was not complying with their instructions. There was not ... he wasn't
listening to anything they were saying to him.
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At that time he wasn't acting in a sane manner, so
no, I don't think he heard the police. He may have heard them with
his ears, but mentally, no.
Did he say "I'm not going to put it down?"
Every time they told him to put the knife down, drop the knife,
whatever, he made no motion whatsoever to comply. If anything he was
waving it in front of his eyes even more. You know, he's going to
kill himself.
What was the last thing you remember as far as an exchange
between the police and Woody before the first shot?
Just to put the knife down, put the knife down, drop the knife.
And did he respond to that?
He was shouting "No"- now whether it was "no I'm not going to put the
knife down" or "no, no"- you know- "I don't want this to happen" or
"no, no, I have to keep talking", I couldn't tell you.
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I think they were afraid he would do something to himself
or one of us so he was talking very loud. I don't know if you'd call
it yelling or not. But anyway.
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source:12/2 interview, p.3
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It was very traumatic and I can't remember any words that were said.
I think they were shouting at each other ... at least the police.
I was noticing the one who was firing, and I'm sure he was shouting,
but I didn't get any words.
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source:12/2 interview, p.4
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I remember there was shouting, and there was shots fired.
That's all I can remember ... I just thought there was some shouting
going on."
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source:12/2 interview, p.5
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My impression is the man who was firing them was shouting at
him at the same time he was firing.
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Almost immediately I think, the shots were fired. As they came
forward, and then the shots were fired. I'd say a minute, half a
minute."
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source:letter he sent Dec 20
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No attempt was made to reason with Woodward, to spray pepper on his
face, to shoot stun bullets, or fire live bullets near but not into
him, nor to incapacitate him as with shooting at his knees. These
are facts.
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I think they were far enough away so it was ... and talking
in the other direction so it wasn't a loud thing they were really
saying so ...
So they weren't yelling at him?
They weren't yelling at him, that I'm aware of ...
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The police were talking to Woody so softly
she couldn't hear what they were saying.
The police were not screaming or hollering.
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source:12/3 interview, p.6
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They were directing him. They were ordering him to
put down, you know, to put down the knife.
Okay. Was there any other conversation?
I didn't hear much else other than their voice.
I think they tried to match his volume and
you know, that must made him more upset. They were very directed in
telling him what to do, not very many words. You know, just say this
is ... you know, they wanted to get control of the situation.
How did Mr. Woodward respond to that?
He raised his voice. His volume went up and he backed away.
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source:12/3 interview, p.7
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Why were they moving forward like that, you know, it
was like all three of them were moving forward and they weren't
trying to , you know, to engage him in any way.
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source:12/2 interview, p.3
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He was saying "No police, No police, No police."
And he had the knife up to his right eye, and he's backing into the
right corner of the room.
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source:12/2 interview, p.4
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And they told him, put down the knife, put down the
knife. And I'm trying to help this lady, trying to get her out of
there. And all of a sudden I hear a shot and ...
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I think the officer told him to drop the knife. At which
point he turned the knife towards his eye as if he was going to point
his eye out. He didn't drop the knife. He didn't go like this toward
the officer, he did it toward his eye, his own eye ... and then the
policeman shot.
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I think they were saying, yo know, giving him orders.
But what those orders were, I didn't hear anything that ...
Did you hear him respond?
No, he didn't say yes or no to anything. He was saying "I'm going to
do this.." and he was saying to the people who were there, "don't
leave, don't leave me." I felt that he was pleading, not with the
police, but with the congregation, not to leave him.
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And he said he would kill himself if they take
another step forward and the police yelled you all leave. Leave now
really shouted.
And he yelled no, no, no, don't leave or I'll kill myself right now,
and then it happened very quickly. Where the police moved up quickly.
I hunched over because I didn't know what was happening, and I looked up=
and the police had his gun drawn.
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Put the knife ... yelling to him put that knife down,
put the knife down, and he's yelling no, no I'll kill myself ... Don't
come any closer. Words like that.
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When a person told people to leave the building,
Woodward became agitated and loudly told people in a desperate voice,
"not to go". As the police officers approached Woodward he started
yelling and. Backed up to the Christmass tree, threatening to kill
himself. The police had guns pointed telling him to put the knife
down but this had no positive effect on Woodward.
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The officers,you know, told him to drop his knife.
Told him to drop his ... the knife. You know, it was that kind of
thing, drop your knife, you know. I wasn't really paying attention to
what they said.
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Did he listen to the officers at all?
No. It didn't even seem like he really recognized ... he seemed to be
in an altered state, you know. I was almost like he had the whole
things set in his mind, and he was just setting the whole stage, in a
way. I mean, that might sound strange,
Did you get the impression he wanted it to happen?
Yes, That''s what I just said. That's exactly what I feel happened.
That he created the stage theat he almost led it up to create what
happened, that he almost wanted it to be that way.
So, that he wanted to be shot?
Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like that's what he was referring to, you
know, that it's you know, that's what I believe it was a mental
illness that way you kind of project that whole thing out, and then
create it, and I kind of felt that's what happened, unfortunately.
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I don't know if I'm imagining it, that the officer's
voice was really clear in terms of telling him to drop it, and he had
said it repeatedly/ It wasn't just once. He had said it more than
once.
(did the other officers talk or was it just the one?)
I believe it was just the one.
Could you tell if Bob heard that?
Oh he definitely ... any healthy human being could have heard that.
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Woodward ah ... got up from here and ran out to the
front of the podium. You know, yelling no. No, you can't go. Nobody
can leave or I'm going to kill myself.
When he started yelling I'm going to kill myself they were saying
no, no ah.. put your .. you know, drop the knife, it's going to be OK.
They were trying ... they were advancing in trying to keep him from
killing himself. ... Someone was telling the congregation that they
must leave at the same time as they were telling Woodward to drop the
knife.
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He said the man was backing away from the police toward
the right corner, 2 exits near the ramp. I asked him what the police
officers were doing when the suspect was backing up. He said he
thinks they took one or two steps forward before stopping, then
shouting for the man to drop the knife. He said the next thing that
happened was the shot. Yes, "drop the knife" numerous times to drop
the knife. I asked how many times, maybe six.
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They were trying to be reasonable. They were not shouting or ...
they were trying to .... All's I can say is that they were trying
to calm him down. I can't remember what they were saying.
And he had this knife in front of his eye, threatening suicide.
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I didn't sit there and count them. This unfolded fairly
quickly. I didn't expect to see guns come out, quite frankly, and the
next thing I knew, one of the officers had taken a gun and put it
behind his back and kept talking to him.
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He was trying to talk him into quitting, you know, just
give himself up.
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I mean the tone it seemed to me was you know, give
yourself up, do something which you're not doing. I don't, I can't
recall hearing specific.
Were any of the other officers saying anything to him?
I don't think so, it moved very quickly from when the gun was pulled
and they started walking, suddenly the other men, and th next thing
I knew they were shooting the guy. It was very one, two, three.
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And uh, he (the officer) moved forward, there was
minimal conversation and the next thing I knew, they were shooting.
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The police were not shouting, they were saying put the knife down.
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I remember looking at the police officer that was
holding the gun, and to me he looked like he was a little
disassociated, to me he looked like he was a little traumatized
himself.
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Remember the exchanges between the officers and Woody?
There was very little
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But I don't remember the police officer saying anything more
other than "drop the knife. And that's probably what concerns me. I
felt like there could have been more potential for verbal
de-escalation.
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When officer said drop the knife how did Woody respond?
He did have the knife up to his eye.
(Did he move it, did he look like he was going to use it, (etc))
There was a potential that I think he, like I said, he was holding it
back up to his right eye which is what he had done one time before
the police officers arrived, which really scared a lot of people in
the church.
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When the officers told him to drop the knife, did he
get more agitated (etc)?
He definitely brought the knife blade closer to his eye. There was
definitely more of a pressure to his speech.
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How did he respond to "drop the knife?
Best I can recall was, he said "No, I'm not going to. He just
insisted he was going to hurt himself. I don't remember him saying
anything else. He made no threats to the officers. He made no threats
to anyone else.
Were you in a position that if he did make any threats you
could have heard?
Of course, cause I was only ten feet away if that. I was in the first
row by the right in the center of the podium. And immediately to my
Left was the officer with the gun.
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The police officer is over just at the entrance of to
the main part of the room. So directly to my right, and he said "I'm
here to ..." he didn't say "I'm here to help you" but he said
something to the effect that "I was called here and you need to come
along now, We have to.. we'll help you but we need to get you out of
here. This isn't the way to help yourself."
That's what the police officer said?
Yeah, he said something, he was just, he was extremely helpful.
I mean, he was very calm, you know. My brother in law is a police
officer but then again, I'm kind of liberal so I'm always looking to
think that the police are going to be (can't understand) appropriate,
but he really was. And he was the calming effect for us, for the
congregation, for the majority of us and ...
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So this man is wild. He's not really moving but he's got such wild
upper body movement that he's just constantly flinching and
the policeman said "You've really got to put the knife down."
He's still screaming "I'm going to kill myself, don't come near me
and you go away, get out of here, you know, I want asylum." And so the
policeman said "What's your name, bla, bla, bla. He said something.
He said "I'm, I'm not leaving here, and I know it, I'm going to be
assassinated." And they're saying to him, you got to give it up, you
got to stop this, and he's not and they pull their guns and they said
"Just give us the knife, give us the knife."
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First he was just totally offended that they were
there ... saying to them, you know, "Don't come near me, I'll kill
myself Don't come up here." And they were saying something to the
effect, you know, "We're here to help you and this situation ... we
were called in when this situation, we were called here, we were
asked to come here., and you know, something like, these people don't
want you here. There's a little more ... he took it upon himself to
say "these people don't want you here. You know, you're causing a
scene. You're causing a problem. That kind of thing, and he was
saying "I'm here for asylum" and "don't come near me. I know you want
to assassinate me and I've had threats on my life." And you know he
kept going on about that.
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but the police kept saying to him, as simply as possible,
"Just come with me, let me help you, let me help you." He didn't pull
out his gun then or anything. He just said "I want to know what it is
that I can do to get you just to come with me." You know, he was
pretty calm. I mean, he was confronting him, definitely confronting
him, but he didn't do anything to aggravate him.
Was the policeman moving toward him?
He stayed ... he stayed, you know, to the corner of that room. I could
see that his modus operandi was to get closer but he didn't do
anything in terms of moving towards him until the other policeman came.
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And about how long were the police talking to Woody before
their guns came out?
Well the one policeman was probably there a few minutes before the
others ... maybe like 2 minutes.
And he was talking with W while he was there?
Yes.
Did he have his gun out?
No.
OK, did W seem to be listening to him?
Well, he was listening. He was having a conversation. He listened to
him as much as he listened to any of us.
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source:12/2 written statement
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The 3 officers approached him and were about seven
feet away from him when one pulled his gun then followed by another.
They shouted for him to put the knife down, which he did not do. The
next thing I knew, 3-5 shots rang out and down Bob went, where he was
subdued by the officers. This all happened very quickly, and took me
by surprise.
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I think they may have ordered him to put the knife down.
The man had then moved toward the left front of the podium
about ten feet away from me. Within a few seconds of that, the
officers, now joined by a third, moved to a position in front of the
man, about 7 feet away from him to the left of the podium. The man
appeared terrified, was still holding the knife to his eye, while
continuing to shout that he was going to either be killed by them or
would kill himself. The officers were directly in front of me and
continued to order the man to put the knife down. I saw the officer
to my left draw his gun and point it at the man and then I noticed
another officer had drawn his gun similarly.
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All this was happening quickly within a matter of seconds.
I did not hear any attempts to reason with him.
The man was incredibly agitated.
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Did this gentleman say anything to the police?
I don't remember. I know he was screaming some things or saying
things rather loudly again, it was the recollection specifically of
what he said, you know. I don't know.
You cant recall specifically?
Ah, not specifically, a lot of the content of, of what he was saying
had to do with I'm going to kill myself.
OK, did you hear them? Did the police say anything to him?
I think I recall hearing somebody say put the knife down. Yes, that,
that you know stern kind of order, put the knife down.
Did you hear them say anything else?
They may have said a little bit more than that, but that does kind of
stand out.
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I was sort of surprised, it took me by surprise.
(when the guns came out).
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He was wielding the knife, it was held up to his right eye,
I do not recall him turning the knife outwardly. My recollection was
that there was it pointed at himself. Ah, and not turned outwardly.
When they moved in front of him getting closer, ah, again my
recollection is that they told him to put the knife down.
I saw the officer on the left had side pull a gun out which sort of
surprised me, so I , I really noticed that and then another of the
officers pulled his gun out. One of the, the one to the right. And
then within a few seconds, ah, it wasn't very long at all, ah, shots
rang out.
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Did you get the impression they were trying to talk
him out of the knife?
I think if I have any impression it was more that they were ordering
the knife out of him, out of his hand, rather than trying to talk him
out of it.
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Woody is quite agitated and yelling and at that point Woody
was not likely negotiable because he was so agitated.
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Police
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The subject was walking very quickly back and forth and in
a circular motion. Officer Parker began speaking to him
and advising him to drop the knife.
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You know, he got upset I think, that we were
telling people to leave.
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I didn't engage the suspect. When we get up there,
Officer Parker basically immediately engaged him and telling him to
put the knife down and ha, so I let him take over as a primary
contact. ... He was the one telling, directing the suspect to put the
knife down.
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He wasn't yelling, he was talking, you know, more
than just a normal voice. I wouldn't say he was yelling, no, but he
was telling him, you know, to put the knife down, or drop it.
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source:12/3 interview, p.6
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... what was the suspect doing [when the officers entered]?
He was standing in the far corner of the building, of the room,
excuse me, with the knife in his hand.
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source:12/3 interview, p.7
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[ Officer Holbrook told him] he tried to motion to them to
come out and nobody would leave. He said they're not coming, nobody
will come, um, at that point, seeing where the suspect was and what
he was doing, we determined that was the extent of the conversation,
that we need to get these people out of here. And we need to, he's
already, I assumed he had already saw me, he knew that we were there,
and that was ah assumption because I had ah looked around the corner
as he was looking in my direction. ... so we needed to go in and deal
with the situation. Um, which we did.
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source:12/3 interview, p.7
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He was waving his knife around and he was talking.
I'm not sure exactly what he was saying to people.
What I meant by waving, he wasn't making slashing motions or anything
like that.
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source:12/3 interview, p.8
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Did you ever hear him make threats to the congregation?
No.
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source:12/3 interview, p.8
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(excerpted from a long narrative- a lot of ums and ahs taken out, too)
I quietly and slowly walked forward and that that point I was able to
say to the people, folks I need you to leave, would you all come this
way and then we're going to leave, and the suspect was very upset
with that and... he was very abrupt with his motions (describes W
putting the knife to his eye and threatening suicide)
I was trying to set a dialog with him that nobody needs to get
killed, we don't do that, just come on, calm down, all the while
telling everybody, folks you need to leave, please come with me, I
was waving my right hand, please leave.
And he's moving around, very quickly around... moving around in his
space that hes in, in front there.. (describes W's threats and
exhortations)
I kept telling the people please come on you need to leave and I
would walk by row after row people were getting up and starting to
move. He was moving around the majority of that entire area that he
had.
I just kept slowly kept going forward to get myself between he and
the congregation, and getting people to move.
Once we got the people out we were hoping to get into a dialog.
I went between some seats to get to the main walkway, and ... came to
position about here.
OK as you walked through here, when you were stationed by
the main door, did you draw your service revolver?
I did not.
Was there a point when you did draw your duty pistol?
Yes there was. It was just before I actually entered the main
walkway, so I was actually between seats, some empty seats that were
there. And I drew my service revolver.
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Did you engage him in conversation?
I just said,
he said he wanted to di, I believe he said he wanted to die. I sad
no, no let's sort this out, everything's going to be OK, we can. I
was doing that kind of dialogue, trying to get him to calm down and
also getting people out at the same time. So the verbal commands
were.. also you folks need to leave, you know, you need to leave
let us calm things down some.
Did you give him any orders on what to do?
I did not at that point.
What happens next?
Without warning and without provocation, he ran at me with the knife ...
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When you drew that and it cleared leather, came out of your
holster, did you immediately put that on the suspect?
Did you hide your gun at all?
I believe I kept it down by my left side. I'm a lefty, so I, I was
running and, and I just pulled it out and kept it by my left side.
Why would you put your weapon down by your side?
I did not want to agitate him anymore than what he was.
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page last modified: 2008-07-20
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